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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: John Scalzi rips low-paying pub |
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I don't /think/ John's going after all non-Pro publications, but the discussion is not yet completely clear on this point. The post in question is here:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/12/01/in-the-spirit-of-the-pulps-and-paying-even-less/
| Quote: | In the Spirit of the Pulps, and Paying Even Less
Published by John Scalzi at 3:34 pm
A friend of mine drew my attention to the following link on the Locus magazine Web site sidebar:
Black Matrix Publishing seeks submissions for four new magazines “in the spirit of the pulp magazines of the last century”
So I clicked through and discovered that in addition to wanting to replicate the “spirit” of the pulp magazines, Black Matrix Publishing also wants to replicate its payment scale as well:
We pay one-fifth of a cent per word on acceptance. Payment is for First Serial Rights.
Yes, you’re reading that correctly: one fifth of a penny per word. That’s 500 words for a dollar, for those of you who don’t want to do the math, and 1/25th of the current SFWA qualifying rate of five cents a word.
For perspective on this, back in the 1920s, Hugo Gernsback, who was notorious for paying his authors poorly, was paying his science fiction writers a quarter of a penny a word. So these people at Black Matrix Publishing are paying 20% less for their fiction than an editor who famous for being cheap eighty years ago. |
I'm either tired or reckless, but I'm posting in the thread. We'll see if I disgrace myself and earn the undying enmity of one of the more powerful voices in SFdom or not. Either way, it promises to be a lively thread.
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Johne (Phy) Cook | Overlord, Ray Gun Revival magazine |
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AstonWest
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Except I think RGR only pays $10 now...not $15 as you'd mentioned in one of your comments. 
Seems a rather lively crowd over there...wish you luck in trying to discuss this topic with them. People tend to have their opinions on fair pay rates, and it's a tough sell to convince them otherwise.
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flashg
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Good, Johne. I just added my own comments for what they are worth. I think my experience in the less than pro rate market is an example of the good things that can come of it. IT amazes me how many people on that blog commented so negatively on the semi-pro or amateur pubs. The idea of working your way up through the ranks doesn't hold much allure for them. Well, if they can swing it and get pubbed in Analog or Ellery Queen first time out more power to them. But frankly I think most of those who sub only to pro markets at the beginning of their careers don't get published and fall by the wayside.
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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your comments, John.
In fact, I was thinking of you as an example of how the system works. You have to start somewhere, and of such humble beginnings are a solid career made.
I had to laugh at the arrogance of some of the posts. One person wrote that if they identified an author whom they recognized from amateur publications, they would never read any of their pro works. Really? You'd read their amateur works, but when they start making pro sales, you wouldn't give them the time of day? This isn't like being a pr0n star and then making it as an A-list actress. This is like working your way up from Little League to HS to college to the minor leagues before making it in the bigs. There is no stigma associated with admitting your growth as a writer (or there shouldn't be).
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flashg
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Phy wrote: | Thanks for your comments, John.
In fact, I was thinking of you as an example of how the system works. You have to start somewhere, and of such humble beginnings are a solid career made.
I had to laugh at the arrogance of some of the posts. One person wrote that if they identified an author whom they recognized from amateur publications, they would never read any of their pro works. Really? You'd read their amateur works, but when they start making pro sales, you wouldn't give them the time of day? This isn't like being a pr0n star and then making it as an A-list actress. This is like working your way up from Little League to HS to college to the minor leagues before making it in the bigs. There is no stigma associated with admitting your growth as a writer (or there shouldn't be). |
I think the arrogance comes from lack of experience. They probably don't know how difficult it is to break into the pro zines. And the difficulty isn't from a lack of talent or ability, its from a lack of markets. There just aren't that many pro-paying markets for short fiction, especially the kind of fiction we're doing here at RGR. I'm glad you spoke out on the issue.
I wonder if Scalzi will answer my post? I'm curious as to what he really thinks about it. IS he condemning all low paying pubs or just Black Matrix? Seems to me it's all of them.
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Alice
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I know a few years ago I got a story published at a non-paying, online market. I got a lot out of it, even without a dollar assigned to its value. The editors took time to work with me on the story (not something you'll see at many big name publishers), and I got a lot of encouragement. You can't put a dollar value on that. It encouraged me to try sending out other stories, too. I felt like I was actually getting something done.
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Phy
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flashg
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, and Ed Morris. But Scalzi's answer to Lou is very disappointing. He's making himself look bad in my opinion. And it looks like he doesn't think I'm important enough to respond to.
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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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If you haven't read John (flashg) Whalen's latest post in the thread, you really should:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/12/01/in-the-spirit-of-the-pulps-and-paying-even-less/#comment-179733
| Quote: | What John S. doesn’t seem to realize is that there is what I’ve been calling for the last couple of years a Neo-Pulp Electronic Revolution going on. There are a lot of low paying magazines on the Internet mostly, and a few in print, devoted to the revival of pulp fiction. It’s the kind of fiction I like to write and read.
The pro markets haven’t caught on yet to what’s going on in the Underground. You cannot sell this kind of story to the big magazines. They are still hung up on stories that have a pseudo-literary veneer on the surface but that essentially have no real substance. It seems to be the kind of story that a lot of the posters here seem to like to read—the kind that have snob appeal.
That’s fine. Keep reading them and avoid the real excitement that’s goin on. Eventually the big boys will catch on, and just maybe then those of us toiling away in the Underground for coolie wages will get some recognition. Until then, I’m like Lou. I don’t give a damn. I’m having a ball getting my stuff published on line or in print.
If someone doesn’t want to read it because it doesn’t have a pedigree, that’s your tough luck. |
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flashg
Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. Now watch all hell break loose!
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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| flashg wrote: | | Thanks. Now watch all hell break loose! |
Again.
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AstonWest
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crimed
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
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Location: Idaho. Here come the spud jokes..
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:10 am Post subject: |
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I am greatfull that RGR printed a story I wrote. I also have to agree with flashg. I love the stories I see in this mag and others on the net. I find they are more exciting and a better read than some other publications I won't mention. I also agree with Alice about getting help full support. I totally botched my first submission to this magazine, even so, I was still given a chance to send it back in. Maybe Phy or Flashg can point out that two iconic authors, H.P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard started out in pulp magazines that were looked down upon by the elite authors of the day. Let's not forget Edgar Rice Burrows as well. Doc Savage, Conan, Sam Spade, John Carter, Tarzan, all of them started out in the pulps. To be honest, I am proud as punch to get a story published, the money doesn't really enter in to it. I didn't sit back one day and say "Dude, I need to make some cash, I better start writing." I would ask if any one making negative comments on the other thread have anything published and if so show me that new Lamborgini.
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Phy
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Now I'm getting angry:
| Quote: | @Johne 117
We have lesser teams to allow people the chance to practice and grow. In writing we have places for that called “critique groups” and “writing forums”. Looking at the non-paying and token, semi-pro mags handing out form rejections with no editorial advice… what does that teach? Nothing. What does getting accepted gain you? Well, for the semi-pros at least you know you don’t suck, but the rest is just confidence. Misplaced, mostly. There’s no point in showcasing crap. Get some feedback on it. Sppend time practicing. Take your rejections and keep on chugging. If I write something, and no one semi-pro or above will touch it, that says something to me: “This needs work.” I don’t take it to the lower levels for $20 bucks or some “exposure”. Noy everything is fit to be displayed. Them’s the facts, and there’s a lot of writers out there who need to suck it up.
That’s different than John offering a freebie to a mag he enjoys, to get them some readers. |
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/12/01/in-the-spirit-of-the-pulps-and-paying-even-less/#comment-179927
| Quote: |
#129 @ atsiko:
Ok, so you have your own preference for a cut-off for a minimum standard of where you will submit. That’s great. Please don’t piss on those whose minimum cut-off is at a different arbitrary level than your arbitrary level. Saying it is not your preference is more honest than ‘there is no value whatsoever,’ an arrogant and snobbish statement.
We’re all readers and writers and editors, here. There’s nothing to be gained by stomping on the fingers of those who do find value in measuring their worth at the not quite Semi-Pro level. The fact that anybody at all is still interested in both reading and writing is heartening to me. It’s hard enough to hone one’s chops as it is for some self-important journeyman to pile on. Up-and-coming writers need encouragement, constructive criticism, and experienced mentors, not one more boot in the face. |
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